all that and more now on "countdown." good evening from los angeles, i'm lawrence o'donnell, in for keith olbermann. president obama has spoken frequently about there being agreement in congress about 80% of what needs to be done to achieve health care reform. what the president does not say, that only one thing would need to go against them before many supporters would withdraw their support. our fifth story on the "countdown," just one of many things to keep an eye on as the senate finance committee considers the 564 amendments to its health care reform bill. that process began this morning on what is the only bill essentially that president obama has endorsed. forget the grand rhetorical flourishes of the town hall meetings that dominated the debate in august. at this stage of the legislative

process, the republicans will attempt to kill the bill, not with hysterical shouting about death panels, but with calm, relentless repetition of the ugliest three-letter word in american politics, uh-huh, t-a-x. >> the bill states the consequences for not maintaining an insurance would be an excise tax, and it makes it clear the excise tax would be assessed through the tax code and applied as an additional amount of federal tax owed. >> the health insurance industry lobby has weighed in on the baucus bill and, no surprise, it pretty much likes what it has seen. in a 13-page letter, karen igane, the head of the industry's largest trade group, thanked the senate chairman max baucus for his bill, while expressing concerns with key aspects of the proposal, of course, including a provision to raise money by taxing health insurance companies.

senator al franken, meanwhile, has lobbied chairman baucus on behalf of the medical device makers in his home state of minnesota. senator franken told chairman baucus that he opposes, along with four other senators, a provision in the bill that would impose $4 billion on annual fees on the makers of products like heart pacemakers and artificial hips. and labor unions and some democrats have also joined republicans in pushing to scale back or kill the provision that would impose a tax on high-cost insurance plans, this so-called cadillac tax. other democrats on the committee pointing out that the current proposal does not offer enough choice to consumers. >> the bill does not hold insurance companies accountable. the bill does not force insurance companies to compete for our business. the bill denies choice of coverage to over 200 million americans.

this bill in its current form stipulates that while you can keep what you have, if you don't like what you have, you've got to keep it. you're stuck. you're denied the chance to get something better. >> that's what support sounds like on the senate finance committee. a new senator from the state of massachusetts could be announced as early as thursday now that both houses of the state legislature have approved a measure allowing the governor to appoint someone to fill the seat held by ted kennedy. final approval is expected tomorrow. much to talk about tonight with msnbc's political analysts howard fineman. he is also, of course, senior washington correspondent for "newsweek" magazine. good evening, howard. >> hi, larry. >> howard, we have moved past the august recess cow shouting and now we're down to the nitty-gritty details. nice, calmed, reason discussion

in the senate finance committee. does that make things any better for the democrats? >> no, it means the republicans are trying to move in for the kill. as you pointed out, and since you worked on the hill for senator moynihan and know the finance committee and the senate as well as anybody on the planet, you know what's going on. as you pointed out, for republicans, taxes are worth than death. death and taxes, taxes are worse. they think they can try to kill it off. as one top democrat told me on the phone a little while ago, he said the sharks are in the water, and they would be not just republicans but some democrats, too. >> well, it does seem that it's all in the language at this point, it's all in the framing. certainly when you get to public opinion on this. you heard republican senators today constantly using the word tax, where democrats prefer to use the word fee. and in our nbc poll, we showed that support for the obama health care reform proposal fluctuates anywhere from 46%, as low as 46%, to as high as 73%,

depending exclusively on how you phrase it. so this is as much as anything else a battle of the semantics with the republicans, it seems to me, having a much easier angle here going for their simpler descriptions for everything. >> that's right. they're shouting fire in a crowded theater. i would say on that poll, if you look at the poll number closely i think it's a little troubling for the obama team because the public doesn't seem to like as much the sales pitch for a public plan based on the idea that it would provide competition to private plans, which is the basis upon which obama's been selling it. but i think a lot of people are concerned when it's phrased that way because they're concerned about their own health care that they already have. they don't want anything in this plan to jeopardize that, and that's -- that's the delicate line obama's been trying to walk, not always successfully. >> and, howard, we see liberal senators like our friend al franken opposing specifics of

the bill. he's opposed to the fee on medical device makers because he has a few of those in his state. >> right. >> we have -- we see big labor pushing back against the cadillac tax on the health care. we see big pharma trying to hold on to its piece of the bill. it seems to me what you see is a series of individual items that could provoke an individual senator to vote against final passage, if those things are in there. in other words, there may be 50 to 60 different ways for this bill to come apart among the democrats. >> yeah, there could be. and i don't know that max baucus, the chairman, is helping things because he seems to be changing all of the details on the fly, and that's troubling, too. and they're giving ammunition to the other side because i know just this evening, i think this afternoon, the head of the congressional budget office is saying that there's so much in it and it's so confusing, it's going to take them two weeks to figure out how much the whole thing costs. if the senate finance committee slows down now and waits for that time, that alone could kill

the bill. >> and, you know, when we talk about 80% agreement, what i've noticed is there's been virtually no discussion up to now about how to pay for it. paying for it is 50% of the bill, and there's no agreement between the house and the senate on that 50% of the bill. what the bill actually does in the health care policy is the other 50% of the bill, and that's where most of the agreement seems to reside. but the finance committee is the first committee to fully consider all of the ways in paying for this, and that it seems to me, is where most of the struggle is going to be in this markup. >> that's right. and that's why the thing from the budget director today is significant. the other thing about this is, the way it looks right now s. people are going to be taxed or they're going to pay fees, call it what you will, to help pay the insurance companies to acquire most customers. that's sort of the bottom line right now. without a public option or anything like that. so that's why the left wing of the democratic party's upset, because of that.

and the right wing is upset because of the amount of money it's going to cost. the only winners -- when karen, who is a terrific lobbyist, ends up being the main winner for the health insurance industry in this thing, that's a sign that the whole thing could fall apart. mark my words. >> and, howard, quickly, the senator from massachusetts, whoever he or she may be, could arrive as early as next week. is that a game-changer? >> no, because the democrats all can't agree, even if they have 60. it's not the holy grail. >> all right, howard fineman of msnbc and "newsweek." thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. and a new report by the white house national economic council says that over the last ten years, insurance companies have raised their premiums anywhere from 90% to 150%, depending on which state you live in. while inflation has risen a mere 28% in the same period. wages, meanwhile, have risen only an estimated 38% in the last decade. that means premiums, which are

still skyrocketing, strongly outpace the rise of american earnings in every single state over the past decade. in washington today, vice president joe biden said that this disparity does not just crush families, does not just cripple the businesses who also pay those premiums. it also hurts the country, subsidizing insurance company profits at the expense of american competitiveness. >> to make up for the higher premiums, you know what companies have to do, they either pass those premiums on to their employees or a larger share, or they pass them on to their customers, making their products even less competitive. and, again, during a recession they've had to do that, which puts american businesses at a distinct competitive disadvantage. to state the obvious, this is simply an unsustainable position. families, businesses, state

budgets, our national economy all demand a significant change. >> let's turn now to a veteran of the insurance industry, wendell potter, former communications director at cigna health care. now senior fellow on health care at the center for media and democracy. many thanks for your time tonight, wendell potter. >> thank you, larry. >> insurance companies responded to this by saying today that in effect their premiums are simply rising in tandem with the underlying costs in the health care sector. what's the evidence on this? how do you rule this one? >> well, that's what they always say. if you recall back 15 years ago, the insurance industry said, let's not do reform like the president proposed or president clinton at that time, mrs. clinton. let's let the invisible hand of the market work its magic. we, the insurance companies, can control medical costs and keep those premiums down. well, obviously, it wasn't something they could do. they eventually ran out of tricks and, in fact, it was not

even possible that they could manage to do it with what they have tried to do. so what they do is now price their premiums above what they expect medical inflation to me, and they always price it enough above that to be able to guarantee their investors a profit. so that's why it's been going up as much as it has. >> and does the baucus bill as you see it now do anything to control the rise of these premiums, and should it do something to control those -- the rise of those premiums? >> it should, but, no, it doesn't. in fact, it gives the insurance industry broad latitude to keep raising premiums and doesn't do very much at all in terms of cost control. >> you know, as you know, wendell, i worked at the finance committee 15 years ago when they were actively opposing the legislation. and what i have been sensing in the last year in the run-up up to this legislation is they just got smarter in the pr the last 15 years, and they just decided going into this thing, the bill is probably going to die of its own weight anyway.

let's not be revealed of proponents of it. let's pretends to be on board and when it gets down to it, if they put anything in the bill we don't like, we will absolutely go all out and try to destroy the bill. is that what they're playing out here? >> absolutely. that's what i have been saying from the beginning. they on the one hand are conducting a charm offensive saying they are for reform. but behind the scenes they're working to kill it. and we've seen evidence of that along the way. i don't think the bill is dead, though. i disagree with that. i think that there really are enough reform advocates in the senate and finance committee and certainly in the house that we might be able to see some reform that actually benefits americans and might cost the insurance industry a little bit of money this time. >> can you -- can they pass a bill that pleases the insurance industry and musters the necessary democratic support in the senate? >> no, no there's not a possibility. the baucus bill as originally written was, like i said before,

quite a gift to the insurance industry. i was mistaken. i thought that they had just about everything they wanted. but as we see, the letter from karen ignane points out that there are a few things more they would like to have or not have, depending on what they see wrong with the bill. but, no, the insurance industry has as its motive, its objective to be able for those companies to be continue to be profitable, to meet wall street's expectations, and that is not the same objectives that most lawmakers and the public has. >> wendell potter, insurance industry whistle-blower, former head of pr for cigna. thank you for staying on the case for us. >> thank you very much, larry. meantime, how important is racism when it comes to opposing the reforms president obama wants to make to health care? former president clinton doesn't see eye to eye with former president carter's assessment. we'll examine clinton's comments and discuss whether there is some political benefit for obama

in president clinton's remarks. and later, president obama and middle east peace. he arranges a high-profile handshake between the israelis and the palestinians. can obama turn that handshake into the -- into headway in the peace process next on "countdown." to mention tdd# 1-800-345-2550 he also makes money when i lose money, tdd# 1-800-345-2550 withdraw money or do nothing with my money. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 tdd# 1-800-345-2550

coming up -- former president clinton says it's the policy, not racism that is driving objections to president obama's health care overhaul. also, president obama steps into the middle east peace process in a major way. and tom delay steps out on "dancing with the stars" with his version of the cha-cha. that's next. of butternut squash, blended with delicate herbs. v8 golden butternut squash. from campbell's. a soup so velvety and delicious you won't be able to contain yourself. campbell's v8 soups.

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this country previous two democratic presidents were white men who managed to win in part because they came from the south. and tonight in our fourth story on the "countdown," bill clinton and jimmy carter are both now talking about their southern perspective on racism but reaching different conclusions about the role racism has played in fueling the small but intense opposition against president obama on health care reform. the official white house line is that opposition to health care reform is based on policy disagreements, not on the color of the president's skin. but after a south carolina republican yelled "you lie" during mr. obama's speech, a virtually unprecedented breach of protocol and the public disrespect for the president, some black leaders suggested the insult would not have occurred with a white president. and last week former president jimmy carter of georgia agreed

and said some of the opposition to the president's efforts on health care is rooted in racism. today mr. clinton was asked whether he agreed with mr. carter's specific statement that, quote, an overwhelming portion of the animosity towards president obama is racially motivated. >> here's how i would say it. i think some of the extreme right who oppose him on health care also are racially prejudiced. and if you listen to some of the -- look at some of the signs and listen to some of the rhetoric, there's no question that, that's true. but i believe if you were not an african-american, all of the people against him on health care would still be against him because they were all against me, too. he believes that. i simply think that's where president carter's coming from. if you're a white southerner and you fought these battles a long time, you're super sensitive to my manifestation based on race. but what's driving the

opposition to president obama on health care is not race. some opponents have racial discrimination in their heart. that's not what driving it. what's driving it is they don't want health care. they don't want the government one more time to take care of people who are left out and left behind. they are philosophically or emotionally or whatever opposed to it. >> with us tonight is professor james peterson, professor of african-american studies at bucknell university. thanks for your time tonight, professor. >> good evening. >> professor, which one of our former presidents do you think is pointing us closer to the truth here? >> that's an excellent question. i tend to side with and agree with more former president carter on this issue, not that it's overwhelming but that it's certainly worth us thinking about and there's some serious things for us to consider when we see the kind of imagery, the size, the language and the vitriol that's been espoused around the country directed at president obama. i think part of the question

here is how do we figure out what the sum is that president clinton's talking about and how do we qualify that or quantify that and then we can address the questions we are having about race in this country right now. >> it seems to me president clinton has a point that people who had racist tendencies would probably be heading in a more conservative direction on health care anyway, and they would probably oppose health care anyway, but wouldn't racism explain some of the energy, some of the vitriol, some of the incredibly over-the-top imagery that we have seen in this opposition to president obama this year? >> racism certainly explains and describes some of it. again, i think we need to measure what that sum is before we move on. but i think we also need to understand that president clinton has a mission here, and essentially what he's doing is he's toeing the line of the obama white house, which is let's move this discussion or center this discussion around health care. let's move away from race,

because we all know that unfortunately race can contaminate and dominate the discourse in this country because of the long history that we've had and we've tried to wrestle with these things and haven't really worked through them all. >> and do you see that as more politically problematic for a black president to try to deal with this stuff in public statements than it would be for a white president? >> of course, yes. this is -- discussions around race are a lose/lose proposition for president obama unforpt knitly. he will never really be able to politically satisfy certain communities, certain aspects of the black community, certain folk on the left who really want to have an honest, constructive, open dialogue about race that we can't really have at this particular point or we're not mature enough or ready to have. he can never satisfy them. and then on the other side or flip side of that, any time he does enter into some kind of discord about race, some of his opponents on the right will try to exploit that to continue to try to marginalize him or fragment or communities so we can't have the productive

conversations about things on his platform such as health care. so it's an extraordinarily complex moment. we felt as if we made such an an spur rational jump in electing president obama, but we actually took a couple steps backwards in our ability or our lack of ability to have constructive qualifications around race. if you look at the various incidents over the course of the summer including gates and kanye west quote a few weeks ago, it's very, very difficult for us in this particular moment to have constructive dialogues about race. i think obama and the obama white house understand that, and unfortunately, race has become one of these political footballs. it will get tossed back and forth and it will be leveraged against president obama in terms of what he's trying to accomplish on his agenda. >> now, given that during my lifetime alone from president nixon forward there have been some incredible lies told publicly out of that white house. what was it like in the -- in the black community to have the first black american president up there on the podium and for him to be the first one, when

he's mentioning a provision in a health care reform bill, he's the first one in this forum ever to be called a liar by a member of congress. >> well, it's stunning, it's startling and disrespectful. a lot of my friends mobilized really, really quickly. we didn't even know who joe wilson was prior to that. but a lot of us mobilized real quickly to redress the situation. but what you need to understand is, depending on where you live, what region of the country, depending on your ethnic background, yes, that's going to reform how you're going to respond to certain situations. so basically what we need to do is understand the complexities of our history in order to better grasp this particular political moment. >> james peterson, professor of african-american studies at bucknell university. thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me. coming up -- the power of parody in the health care fight. the folks at funnyordie.com team

up with moveon to produce an ad championing the cause of big insurance. and the struggle for middle east peace. president obama's first big, high-profile step into the age-old conflict. where does the president take the process from here? ahead on "countdown." (announcer) when you buy a car what are you really buying? a shiny coat of paint? a list of features? what about the strength of the steel, the integrity of it's desi? or how it responds in extreme situations. the deeper you look, the more you see the real differences. and the more you understand what it means to own a mercedes-benz. the c-class. see your authorized mercedes-benz dealer for special offers thrgh meedes-benz financial. a day on the days that you have arthritis pain, you could end up taking 4 times the number... of pills compared to aleve. choose aleve and you could start taking fewer pills. just 2 aleve have the strength... to relieve arthris pain all day.

president obama brings the fierce urgency of now to the middle east peace process. coming up -- the president brings the israelis and palestinians together in new york. can today's historic handshake

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a president doesn't get to choose global conflicts, but he must choose how to deal with them. and in our third story on the "countdown," today for the first time since his election, president barack obama inserted hipse himself directly into middle east peace negotiations. the goal, a palestinian/israeli two-state solution that remains a distant dream. on the same day as mr. obama's first appearance at the general assembly as president, he tried to restart negotiations on the most intractable problem of our time, the israeli/palestinian peace process. president obama held bilateral meetings at the cal dove astoria hotel in new york today with

israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu and with palestinian prime minister mahmoud abbas. the president then brought those two leaders together for a trilateral meeting that began with handshakes all around as well as a new sense of urgency from the president. >> simply put, it is past time to talk about starting negotiations. it is time to move forward. it is time to show the flexibility and common sense and sense of compromise that's necessary to achieve our goals. permanent status negotiations must begin and begin soon. we cannot continue the same pattern of taking tentative steps forward and then stepping back. success depends on all sides acting with a sense of urgency. >> president obama also directed his secretary of state hillary clinton and the special envoy to the region george mitchell to meet again with israeli and palestinian negotiators next week.

mr. mitchell had just returned to washington after a week of shuttle diplomacy that had produced little from either side. president obama has asked secretary clinton to report on the status of the new negotiations in mid-october. let's bring in the former national security council director for iran and the persian gulf, hillary mann leverett. thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> now, was this just a photo-op at the waldorf today or was this a real restart of the process? >> i think this was more than a photo-op. i think this was -- this was the power of obama, his compelling rhetoric, his strategic use of symbols, the media communication. this was the power of obama to try to bring people forward, bring them together. i think it was a good start. that said, though, there are serious flaws in the strategy, in the policy that i think may prevent president obama from really achieving an israeli/palestinian and broader

arab/israeli settlement. >> now, the president's been criticized for taking on too much too soon y. is the president pushing this perennial problem that no one's ever made real progress on while he's got health care reform in front of him, he has to deal with troop levels in afghanistan and other urgent issues. why now on this one? >> well, i think that president obama does really understand the middle east. i think he studied it in college. i think he really does understand it. and there had been moments of progress, some really achievement in arab/israeli peace in our history. the cardinal rule, though, in arab/rerlly peace making to really make progress is that a president must engage the palestinians and israelis, the arabs and israelis, in serious negotiations in his first year, maybe first year and a half, because if he doesn't do it then, the american political calendar takes over. first with the midterm congressional elections, which for obama will be 2010. and then the presidential re-election in 2012. those elections, that american political calendar, will overwhelm and paralyze any

arab/israeli process if it's not already in a serious state of negotiations in the first year. >> and is there any reason to believe that president obama can actually achieve headway here where his predecessors have failed? >> well, not unless he has a serious coherent strategy to achieve a settlement. and here i think he does have some significant problems. both on the israeli side and on the arab side. first on the israeli side, his focus on settlements, while important, has only been enough to really annoy the israeli prime minister netanyahu and to alienate a very large sloth of the israeli public. there's a poll out today, this morning, that says only 4% -- that's 4, not 40, 4% of israelis think that obama is a friend of israel. the israelis i think by and large have been alienated by the settlement policy but obama hasn't done enough on settlements to achieve breakthrough. similarly on the arab side, the obama administration i think has had a misplaced focus on arab

states, particularly saudi arabia. trying to get them to front load concessions or gestures to the israelis which aren't going to happen. instead they should be focused on the palestinians, on making sure that they're dealing with the palestinians who control territory and have popular support so that they can get about the business of actually creating a palestinian state. >> and dealing with the palestinians is far more complicated than shaking mahmoud abbas' hand. he doesn't actually represent infectively all of the players that need to be controlled on that side of this conflict, does he? >> that's absolutely correct. this is a major flaw in the policy. we are only talking to one representative of the palestinians. he only controls part of the territory in the west bank. hamas, the other palestinian political movement of significance, controls the entirety of territory in the gaza strip and controls the popular sentiment support of a lot of palestinian -- a lot of palestinians in both the west bank and gaza. without a policy where we

have -- where we have hamas at the table, it's doomed to failure to really bring about a palestinian state. >> hillary mann leverett, former staff are forethe national security council. thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you very much. coming up -- is laughter the best medicine for solving america's health care crisis? will ferrell does a tongue in cheek public service announcement defending the status quo in health care. tom delay's "dancing with the stars" problem. his number of pounds lost practicing for the show exceeds the number of points he learned for his debut dance. and when rachel joins you at the top of the hour, the health care fight within the democratic party as liberal dems urge more conservative dems to stand together in the reform battle. access to favorite courses chef's meal with pommes frites perhaps a night at the theater with extra special seats

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coming up -- could comedy prove to be the tipping point in the debate to reform health care? will ferrell, his take on insurance companies and their billion dollar profits.

and later, indicted tom delay learns to cha-cha. that should come in handy in prison. that's next. this is "countdown." challenging my husband to use new crest extra white plus scope outlast. [ female announcer ] new crest extra white plus scope outlast for a whiter smile and a fresh breath feeling that lasts up to five times longer. [ inhales deeply ] ok she's right. my breath still feels fresh. [ female announcer ] new crest extra white plus scope outlast.

on the scorecard of celebrity endorsements, the 2008 presidential election was never even close. obama had the likes of oprah, barbra and steven in his corner. john mccain had wilford -- yes, bremly. in our number two story, the celebrity factor has been a

nonfactor during president obama's campaign for health care reform, but with a new ad out today, will ferrell and friends hope to change that. the public service announcement is called "something terrible is happening," and stars will ferrell and "mad men's" john ham, among others. it is a collaboration between moveon.org and will ferrell's website funnyordie. we leave it to you to decide whose side mr. ferrell is on this time. >> something terrible is happening. >> something terrible is happening. >> something terrible is happening. >> something terrible is happening. >> health insurance executives are getting a bad wrap. >> as the health care debate heats up -- >> we need to remember who the real victims are, health insurance executives. >> people are saying a lot of really mean things about health insurance companies and their executives, and it's got to stop. >> these great businessmen are american heroes. >> so why is obama trying to reform health care when insurance companies are doing just fine making billions of dollars of profit? obama, why? >> insurance companies need our

support because they keep our selfish priorities in check when we can't. >> please, doctor, my daughter's dying! she needs medication! >> think about somebody else for once. >> if my kid falls off his bike and breaks his leg, he should have to pay that money out of pocket, out of his allowance. >> how else is he going to learn not to fall off that bike? >> insurance companies are detailed oriented enough to deny claims for things like typos. if you spell something wrong, do you really deserve surgery? i don't think so. >> 80% of the american public support the public plan because it would give quality care people could actually afford. >> but when you think about it, who's really supporting it, other than 80% of the american people? >> and the public option would make insurance companies lower than prices and give better service in order to compete. >> what's so american about competition? >> health insurance companies are huge. >> they need to make big profits so they can afford to give their employees health insurance. >> believe me, that stuff is not

cheap. >> it makes sense. insurance company ceos have a right to their american dream. >> big houses. >> a private plane. >> $500 million in your pocket. >> and a mini zoo in your backyard for exotic animals like a white tiger and pygmy horses. >> insurance companies offer you variety. >> they can change the price or your plan at any time or stop covering awe altogether. >> do you want to get rid of those options? >> so join us in the fight to protect our insurance company profits. they've looked out for our best interests for so long -- >> now we should look out for theirs. >> and i'm not being sarcastic, not at all. coming up -- tom delay's debut on "dancing with the stars." why the heck is he doing this? for the answer, we turn to my special guest tonight, "dancing with the stars" graduate penn jillette. now your card comes with a way to plan for what matters to you. introducing blueprint. blueprint is free and only for chase customers. it lets you choose what purchases you want to pay

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decked out in rhinestones, growling at the camera and grinning like he was posing for another mugshot, our number one story, where do you go after leaving the halls of congress in disgrace? the answer now, "dancing with the stars." indicted tom delay making his "dancing" debut on the show's season premiere. but before indicted tom delay stepped out onto the dance floor, the audience got a peek at the rehearsals. >> bop, bop, bop, no. >> one thing i wasn't prepared for in learning to dance was getting in touch with my feminine side. >> left, left, left -- that way. >> going left for me is absolutely outrageous. i have been a conservative all my life, but if i'm going to do a good cha-cha, i have to vote with the republicans and party with the democrats.

>> then it was time for indicted tom delay to perform. mr. delay reportedly sporting a spray pen and wearing a costume that the former congressman himself described as elvis meets animal print. alongside partner sheryl burke, it was finally time to cha-cha-cha. ♪ ♪ wild thing ♪ you make my heart sing you make everything groovy ♪ ♪ wild thing you make everyth ♪ wild thing you make everythi ♪ wild thing ♪ wild thing i think i love you ♪ ♪ but i want to know for sure ♪ come on hold me tight ♪ ♪ i love you

♪ wild thing ♪ you make my heart sing ♪ you make everything groovy ♪ wild thing ♪ come on wild thing ♪ ♪ you make my heart sing ♪ you make everything groovy ♪ wild thing >> wow! a moment i'd never thought i'd see on television. okay, bruno. >> you are crazier than sarah palin!

bloody hell, what's going on! actually, the little cha-cha-cha you did wasn't too bad. the rest, i am not sure. all right. carrie ann? >> that was surreal. it was. wow, tom delay, you're a wild thing. that's kind of -- okay. you know -- no, no. the basic was very nice. your new york was nice. you're very light on your feet. cheryl, i'm impressed. you have a natural grace to you, which flows your way and you're rocking it towards the older crowd to judge. >> parts were magic, parts were tragic. actually, the cha-cha-cha part was very, very good. as for all of that other stuff, tom, it wasn't up my alley. i deposit idn't enjoy that. but the cha-cha. >> you didn't like my --

>> wild thing indeed. a valiant effort considering the former congressman is actually recovering from a prestress fracture of his right foot. however, indicted tom delay was not able to whip the much-needed votes to stay at the top of the pack. after a vietnamese waltz group relay, tom delay finished the night in third for the last place. fans will have to wait until wednesday night's result show to see if indicted tom delay will live to dance another day. joining me now, former "dancing with the stars" contestant and one half of the magician duo penn and teller, penn jillette. thank you for joining us tonight. >> thanks for having me. i feel like cha-cha-chaing all over again. i was reliving my "dancing with the stars" time. >> and did you a cha-cha as i recall on "dancing with the stars." >> i did. it was actually cha-cha-cha, lawrence. there are three chas. >> there is. >> i did a cha-cha-cha, and the cha-cha-cha i did pretty well. it was the two step the next

week that was my -- my waterloo. that took me down to chinatown. >> yeah, the two-step. okay, listen, you have made the insane decision to go on "dancing with the stars." can you -- can you explain to me tom delay's insane decision of going on "dancing with the stars"? i really don't get this in his case. >> what's insane about it? he no longer has a job. >> with you -- with you i understand it. you -- you told me that you sold more tickets to your vegas show because abc was running promos of you on "dancing with the stars." >> oh, yeah. >> i get that. what does tom delay have to sell? >> well, i imagine he does public speaking. and his name being more recognized. but also i can't, of course, discuss the actual figures, but what does -- what does a congress person make? what do they make a year?

>> figure in the house of representatives is making $150,000 a year. >> well, it's more than that a week to be on "dancing with the stars." so if you're in show business, how bad is it to spend five hours a day in an air conditioned room with a beautiful woman? there is a little bit of humiliation. but you know as well as i do, if you're in show business, no matter who you are, there's always a little bit of humiliation. so he's getting a taste of that. and it can't hurt more to have those judges say what they said than it is to be indicted. i mean, he can take that, right? so why not get paid? >> and you -- did you get in touch with your feminine side as much as tom delay seems to have done? >> i just love -- >> i know you were already in touch with your feminine side, but did this increase that contact? >> i don't even know what he's talking about. there are very masculine people who dance. i guess the idea of moving your body makes you a homosexual as part of his platform or something. i don't get it at all.

>> and where does he go from here? i mean, is there -- is he just going to make the tour of the reality shows now? when you leave "dancing with the stars," do the other reality competition shows want you? >> i think i have been asked to do -- i think i have been asked to do ones that are more humiliating. i mean "dancing with the stars" is really not that bad. you are going on the show, doing something by definition you're not good at. and to be fair to tom, i went on the show and really, besides all of the reasons of commerce, i really enjoyed learning something that i had no natural talent at, and i really enjoyed working on it, and it's possible that whatever you think of tom, that his motives in this one case, just on abc's "dancing with the stars," only here that his motives are fairly pure. he may have wanted to dance. >> no! i don't know. >> only here. only here. i'm not saying he has any other pure motives anywhere in his life. but in this little circumscribed area, maybe there was some purity there.

i don't know. >> all right. you're his coach. one of the two things you would tell him to guide him through the rest of the way here? >> suck up to the judges. >> okay. >> do not answer back. do not make fun of them. suck up to the judges. smile a lot. and get those votes in. but no one understands the voting system, so maybe he can do some gerrymandering or something and up his chances. i never understood how the voting even worked. i just worked, i just tried to dance as well as i could, which was not very well. and let's remind everybody, i was the first person off. so if he even goes past the first cut, he's doing better. >> and as i recall quickly, a sucking up to the judges was something you neglected to do when you were on the show? >> yeah, i didn't get that memo. >> and that has something to do with you being the first one off. penn jillette of penn & teller. thanks so much for joining us tonight. that will do it for this edition

of "countdown." i'm lawrence o'donnell in for keith olbermann. our msnbc coverage continues now with "the rachel maddow show." good evening, rachel. >> good evening, lawrence. i always believed in sucking up to the judges no matter what i am being judged on. i completely agree with mr. jillette. just for the record. >> there you go. i'm with you on that one. thank you at home for staying with us for the next hour as well. amid the intense fighting over health care today, the other news of the day was a series of jaw-droppers. we learn eed the rest of the sty about the chief of staff to the u.s. senator that claims straight porn makes people gay. it turns out that may now be an issue in the virginia governor's race. today also saw the return of condoleezza rice to the national debate over the wars that the bush administration started but never won. scandal-plagued senator john ensign is back in the headlines. and, of course, there's that story about gadhafi pitching a tent on donald trump's lawn. new that's sounds like the start of an offcolor joke but actually

isn't. it has been an astonishing news day today and we will get to all of that this hour. but where we begin tonight is with a mystery solved. why if you're a democratic member of congress you would want to fight tooth and nail against your own party on the biggest issue facing the country right now. there are as many different solutions to that mystery as there are conservative democrats in congress. but for the man who's become the poster child for democrats blocking their own party's efforts to reform health care, for the lead conservative blue dog democrat on health care, for the house's most vocal democratic opponent for a public health insurance option, a public option that's favored by a democratic president, majority of people in the country, by the majority of people in his home state, and according to new polling, by the overwhelming majority of democrats in his own district, for congressmen mike ross of arkansas, the mystery may allegedly at least perhaps be solved. today politico published investigative reporting about mike ross by a reporter named